Episode 1 - 2Gen Learning Podcast Launch

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the 2 Gen Learning Podcast. We're excited to have you here today. My name is Mike Cobb.

And I'm Logan Bergenhier.

And, we're here just to share a little bit about our journey to hopefully have some fun conversations and to continue to engage in looking at how the future might shape us all and how we might shape it. So, again, we're excited to have you join us today. So Logan, where are you right now?

I'm currently in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

Fantastic. Well, I am in beautiful Winston Salem, North Carolina. And, so we are far apart right now, but yet able to be close together, which is one of the things I love most about doing the podcast. So, I'll do a quick introduction, for myself. Again, my name is Mike Cobb, and I have been working in education in various roles for, how many years, Logan?

Probably, like, 600 now. Right?

About that. 35 or or less. 35. Yes. And, you know, I've had the great fortune to work for schools that were thinking on being forward leaning, trying to really engage with what students might need not just today but into the future.

I worked for 20 years at the Oak Ridge School in various roles from teacher, coach, to middle school head, to over summer programs, to really anything that needed to be done. I was then able to be head of school at All Saints Episcopal School for 7 years, and then I worked in NEOM, in Saudi Arabia for 2 years where I was fortunate enough to meet Logan. I am now, working as the senior innovation and organizational excellence strategist at Mission and Data and also the futurist in residence at Forsyth Country Day School here in Winston Salem, North Carolina. Logan, over to you.

Wow. I had to follow-up after that, Mike. My name is Logan Bergenheier. I'm originally from the United States, Seattle area. Lived abroad the last 10 years, so also in education for a long time, over 10 years, not 600, but working on it.

I've worked in public US tools and alternative tools, private international tools in Mexico, boarding schools in the UK, and then, of course, a few private international stools in Saudi Arabia as well, where I met Mike at Niam, the 2nd stow I've worked there, as the founding assistant head of stool there. And, yeah, lots of different titles throughout my career, but, a lot of international, time that I've been out now. So it's been interesting. So I'm happy to be here and happy to be talking about education with you and life with you, from very different perspectives, hence 2 Jen.

That's right. That is, that's kind of the the Lexus of this story is that Logan and I were able to, again, be working on, what I think most would really consider the most innovative project and probably the most audacious dream in the world with NEOM. And, what we found is that we were doing this really incredible project together, really thinking into the future. But we also found that our places in life and where we were actually gave us really unique perspectives that really helped us, but at times were humorous. I realized that many times my jokes, didn't always land exactly with Logan because he didn't know the references I was making, and sometimes I felt like he was speaking another language with, what I consider his hipster talk.

Oh, wow. Well, you know, I was

born in 1991, Mike. So, we we consider ourselves millennials. I'm I'm a younger millennial, but still a millennial. Yeah. Whereas you must be a boomer.

Is that right?

No. No. No. This gen x air tank takes great offense to that there, millennial.

Apologies. Apologies. Yeah. I wasn't I wasn't sure. But, yeah, we had a good time and, lots of really fun goofy moments.

Lots of good references. I'm sure we'll hear some eighties talk today, and I'll have no idea what you're talking about, but you can explain it to me. It'll be great. Let's do it.

That is guaranteed on this this podcast that we'll have that. Again, what was really fun for us, though, as we got to know each other and learn how to be a great team and how to to lead into some of the really uncertainties that we were facing, though, is that we brought great diversity with our our backgrounds, but then we also partly that into a friendship beyond work. We've traveled around the world together. We've been, from Georgia to Istanbul to South Africa and and many places in between. Pretty amazing experiences.

Oh, yeah. For sure. Lots lots of extra places we could talk about too. Egypt and Jordan and That's right. Arab Emirates and all around Saudi too.

We've we've been very, very fortunate.

Yeah. It's cool to see the world from, different perspectives and have that, again, fun, banter that we have always had. So, you know, right now, I'm on the precipice of a a new launch for myself and working with Mission and Data, doing some really exciting work around strategic planning for mostly, schools or nonprofits, but really any entity that wants to make the world a better place. That's really our mission statement. But then our kind of unique thing is that we we believe into the future that accountability and data is gonna become more important than ever, mostly because we have so much of it.

And so, you know, I'm thinking about what that future looks like for schools and trying to do the good work as a futurist here at Forsyth Country Day School. So, you know, I hope that we can lean into a little bit today what we think the future might look like in schools. And it's a big topic, I know. But I'd love to throw it to you first to just think, what are those, those emerging trends? What are those things that we ought to be early spotting right now, for what students will need not only today, but into the future for a longer term future?

Let's use one of the hottest buzzwords that you hear around the circuit right now, which is micro credentials. Mhmm. So this is this is a huge hit. Every every conference I go to, I hear about it. When I'm talking to people, I'm hearing about it.

And for me, it's really interesting to think about, because I do believe it has the ability if we focus more on micro credentials to help personalize education, create different pathways. And it's something we do in the working world anyway. A lot of corporate structures already have some kind of, upskilling or learning and development team, whether it come from HR or something differently different. So that idea that you're always continuing to learn in these micro ways is something that I think is really hot and trending right now and the future for a lot of our our students. And some students are starting to do it as it becomes very, very accessible.

So what do you think of micro credentials? Let's do that.

Oh, well, I you you do know how much I believe that we have to move away from this model of working in blocks and working over what what many people think is essential knowledge that may not be so essential in the future in the post information age. And so, we're learning that way anyway. I mean, right now, students all across the world are on YouTube trying to learn something on the guitar, or they're trying to learn a fast fact. And we either let them create their own micro credentialing that really doesn't really, have a lot of direction or path, or we can kind of embrace that and help them. And like you say, if we're doing the work in schools to help students be ready for a future in the workplace, that is what's happening in the workplace.

So let's look at that and say, okay. This is what we should be looking at. I mean, I'm working right now in an office space that is such a collaborative open space. There certainly aren't rooms where people are piling in 20 at a time to do an exercise. Right?

They're working as the day flows, and I think our schools need to be built, more around that future, that that look. So I I'm I'm very, bullish on the the way that we look at personalization and microgrid insulin. Did you get the bullish reference there? I mean, I know it's a it's a a a stock market.

Got it. Stock market.

Yeah. I just wanna make sure on that.

Good. Younger, but still understand the stock market. Right? Fantastic. Just remember, my yeah.

Go on. Go on.

I was gonna say, let's talk a little bit about, AI because that's the other hot topic. If the people aren't talking about micro credentialing and how we look at that, I mean, the next thing is AI, it's going to change everything. And, I'd love to know kinda what you think. And I certainly know that we were working a lot with AI, building it not only within our day to day, but within the curriculum. But what do you think the future looks like for AI in schools?

Where's where's the the benefit? Where's the harm?

Oh, man. I love it. I'm a huge supporter. I mean, for me, I think it all comes down to the user input and then also having an ability to be an editor. So there there it doesn't replace critical creative thinking at all.

It can't do that. But using it as a tool just like you would use any other tool, I think, is gonna be critical. And and I've met a lot of educators that are very concerned about it. They don't wanna use it. But, I mean, it's here.

It it's open. It's ready, and and kids are using it all the time. So what we need to focus on for sure is how they use it and in what ways they use it and how to understand the results that come of it. I mean, I think most people I've worked with have at least used, for example, chat gbt for an email at one point in time. But you can't just presume the email is written the exact way you wanna do you want it to say.

Right? So it's only as good as the input, and it's only as good as your, your editing at the end as well. I always go in, and I make it my own. Right? And and it's over time, I think these systems will learn us a little bit better, and it will start to be able to sound actually like you.

I don't think that's too far away. But in the meantime, you know, it comes back to kinda common sense, ethical ethical training of how to use AI and when to use AI, especially when we're talking about traditional education in this time where we're going from traditional education to some new version of education that we don't fully understand yet. Mhmm. What do you think of that?

I I love it. I'm I'm about to give you the the time warp a little bit, so get ready for some pre Logan being born, references. But I'm old enough to remember in education when the the first encyclopedia Britannica was put on a CD ROM, and teachers were concerned about the easy access and how this would impact. And then we had Alta Vista, which was one of the first search engines that, oh my gosh. Surely, this is going to ruin education that then spiraled into Wikipedia, then to Google.

Every time, educators around the world thinking this this will not allow us to continue, and what has happened for the best educators is each one of those tools has actually made us better, has allowed us to go deeper, and allowed our students to actually engage with, knowledge seeking in a better way. So I don't see any difference here. Could AI be misused, and could it actually create problems? Absolutely. Technology has it it is not you can't personify technology.

It It does not have the ability to be good or bad. Only we can make technology good or bad and how we use it. But when I think about, talking to teachers again over 35 years of education, I think about that the one thing that I hear when you ask a teacher about why they're not doing more or why they aren't going as deep as they'd like to go, it's it's always universal. It's I don't have enough time. Like, I I literally run out of time.

I can't do all the things that I wanna do. And it's this professional guilt that we often feel as teachers when we feel like I I wanted to do more. I wish I could have done that one other thing with Jimmy. I wish I could do that one other thing for the other student. I wish I could do that.

And we run out of time. And so AI has this potential, if we apply it correctly, to save time, to actually generate some of those low level tasks that we do that create so much time. I think about grading, assessments, emails, and communication. All those things have the potential to create time for us now to do the things you talked about with our creativity and the personal touch of being human. We now can do that more.

So I I'm super excited about it, but I am worried that if we don't do it correctly or we do it from a worry mindset that we may miss the opportunity and we could see it not help transform schools because we have lots of technologies that could do more for schools right now that are doing less because of our, the way that we employ it or the way that we actually dismiss it. So that's me being super excited but also pessimistic about how we will actually allow education to transform. But certainly, there opportunities are there.

No, Mike. I mean, I completely agree with you. I think the way we can get to a place where we are being truly transformative and not just saying we're trying to be is by embracing it, by leaning into it, by working with each other to learn from it. Like I say, it's here. It's not going away.

We have to adapt. We have to be flexible. This is this is also just another layer of the conversation we've been talking about in education for over at least 10 years, maybe 35 or 600, as you know. But we're moving away from content experts. We're moving towards guides and facilitators.

And that's that's the way it should be. And it's actually, in my opinion, it's more similar to the real work world anyway, where you have to inquire, you have to be curious, you have to problem solve, and that comes all through skill development. There's some explicit education that's needed. Don't get me wrong. I don't wanna just throw kids in a room and tell them to figure it out.

Totally. But we have to be able to trust that that they can move it forward, and we can support them to move it forward as long as we're invested in learning it ourselves and facilitating ourselves, which is a ton of work. And and like you say, you know, when it comes to time, you're focused on grading, you're focused on lesson planning, you're focused focused on reports and all the other million things that go into a school day. But but if we can dedicate some time towards that, because students are already doing it, we're gonna be better prepared to meet them where they're at. And I I think we'll move forward for sure.

But but even, you know, to say it's transformative, it's it's gonna be transformative one way or another whether we we have purpose towards that, transformation of education or if we're just behind. Right?

Right. So, let me ask you. What was the first search engine you remember using on the Internet? What was that the one that you first started with? Do you remember?

Oh, man. I think the first computer I'll back up. The first computer I ever used was, I think, Windows 98 or something like that. Alright. Okay.

The one where, you know, it makes all the sound and you can't be on the phone. And my dad kicked me off the Internet by just holding the phone talk button on. It's been on there enough today. You know? But we were just so curious.

It's just even back then, I I mean, in that system, it was just such an instant way to get information or to interact with others. I mean, AOL messaging. Right? We'd all go to middle school. We'd get out of middle school, and we'd just go home and sit on a computer and talk to each other because not everyone had phones and stuff.

That was texting, you know?

Yes.

So that's the search engine, I don't know if it was, you know, I I can't remember if it was, like, a Google one or Safari one or whatnot. But I do remember that first system, and waiting for, like, to dial up and, getting Yes. The Internet pretty much everything.

Well, good. I'm glad you remember dial up. I certainly do as well. I remember around the it seems like around the time that you might have been coming up with Ask Jeeves was a big one for a short time. Do you remember that one?

It was so funny. Yeah. It was like, yeah. It's it's like you were supposed to ask this Butler guy, Jeeves, questions, and he would retrieve it for you. But I remember my first computer.

I was fortunate. I had parents that were, I guess, forward thinking and they bought us a family computer back in 1982, an Apple 2e, which was very early. And I remember sitting around this thing playing a game called Transylvania that was just text. And it was just kind of a choose your own ending text, but we were so enthralled with it. And it kind of started my, one, my appreciation for technology, seeing how it actually brought our family together.

But also, I think it helped me not I mean, it was just part of our life. Right? I mean, in our family, we had a personal computer. Very few had 1 in 1982 in their home. And so I always have had, that kind of mindset that, yeah, I mean, I'm gonna be a front runner when it comes to those technologies and have that.

So it's pretty interesting. And I think that we have to always consider everybody has their own journey about that too, about where they've used technologies well and where it hasn't served them as well. But in our schools, our students won't be facing that. They will be facing a world that will be more and more cognitive. Everything around them will be based on this technology that is running the background.

And I believe very deeply that if our students don't know that language and don't have that mindset that I said I had luckily growing up, that then they're gonna be they will be slaves to the technology that's around them. And that's why I think it's imperative.

Oh, for sure. And and we see that already. Right? I think the most most, common place that we see that is with phones. Teenagers and phones.

Right? So whether you're a slave in a good way or you're using it for learning, I mean, you see it the whole spectrum of use. But but almost all teenagers who can have a phone probably do have a phone, and they're already connected in that capacity, whether it's through Wi Fi or data. And so they're they're, you know, they already have access to these areas, and they're already learning these skills whether implicitly or explicitly. But for us as educators, as much as we can make explicit teaching around the fundamental use of these different technologies and how they can support us in the development of ourselves and systems, more efficiencies, I think that's the way we're we're moving.

Right? When when you develop something new or have a new business plan, you're either creating something new that doesn't exist or you're improving a system that does already exist. And so this technology, I mean, from my perspective, a lot of it is around improving efficiencies of how we do things. The visualization of, you know, Saudi Arabia having lived here for 7 years is a really interesting case. Everything become became very digital, during COVID.

And now I almost never carry an ID, a wallet, cards, anything. I mean, everything is in my phone. And if my phone died, I mean, you know, we're connected enough we could get a charger, but everything works for my phone. To get in to places, to pay for things, to use maps. I mean, I I always get a kick out looking at those old memes, from back in the day that all the different devices you used to have on your utility belt in order to do the same things that the device does now, and it's incredible.

And it's only gonna keep going in that direction. So for us, again, like, looking at how we can support students with this just massive piece of technology that they're using anyway, I I think it's something we have to do, and I think if we ignore it, then we're just doing a disservice to

Absolutely. But let's talk about that a little bit. I think a little, sidebar because, again, I've just come off of 2 years in Saudi Arabia, and it is fascinating to me being back in the States. One of the just the the things that you notice when you're back is I'm at a restaurant and I'm handing my credit card over to a stranger, someone I've never met before, and letting them walk away with it and Yes. And, hopefully, do the right thing with it.

But, yeah, in Saudi Arabia and most of the the Middle East and certainly through our travels, that would be so uncommon. You would never give your credit card over and and that's just not it. So, like, it is interesting to me that though the United States is so technologically advanced in, I think, most of the bigger ways that we still fundamentally, we haven't embraced some of those things that are happening around the world. So, like, what are some things you notice when you're back home or when you're there that are different?

Oh, one of the most common things that drives me nuts, and my family will attest to this, is I always forget my wallet because I don't think about it. I and I know you should always have your driver's license and your ID. I'm not advocating for, you know, breaking any rules or anything. But

But you have that in Saudi Arabia. Right? On your phone. Right?

Oh. Oh, yeah. All all it's all digitalized. It's all in the system. It's EV.

Easy Visa systems. You know, it's all in one place. My car registration, my car insurance, my, you know, residency ID, my digital passport. But then, of course, you know, with Apple Pay, Tap Pay, Google Pay, whatever the pay version 2, I've just become so accustomed abroad in most places. I mean, even Europe too, where they'll bring you their little, you know, Wi Fi connected, payment system, and then you just pay with your phone.

So one of one of the most common things when I'm in the US, and I remember when I first started to notice this, I actually got a little frustrated. I was like, how are we not caught up with with that? I mean, that that's definitely one of the things. The US taking their card away from you is very abnormal having lived abroad for the last 10 plus years. That doesn't happen in any other country I've been to.

And so now that feels a little bit uncomfortable, to be honest, because I'm in the US a couple times a year. So, again, not used to it. Those are those are some of the easy ones. The other ones that stand out is if anyone in the US has ever been to the DOL or the DMV and had to deal with, you know, pulling a ticket and waiting and bringing the papers and this and that. It's not like that and everywhere.

Right? Like, here, it is so digitalized to just renew a driver's license. It's a few buttons on my phone in the app, and you pay a fee, and you're done. You don't need to go and do all that. So so that's an interesting thing.

But again, if you think about that, just real world context is the efficiencies. Right? I don't have to go to a physical location, talk to a physical person. This sounds a little sad, but it's totally my generation. I don't have to talk to anyone.

I I don't have to bring pieces of paper and wait in line and and then, you know, realize I forgot something and have to come back the next day and wait another hour in line. It's just all on the phone. And and I think that efficiency is the future of a lot of these different systems that, you know, countries such as this one are trying to invest. So so that's a big difference as well.

Yeah. I I I definitely experienced it and share that. And I think that it's interesting thinking about the bureaucratic barriers that that we put in. And I think that the the fact that, the United States is more established in some of those ways actually is the hindrance right now because they have to either do away with bureaucratic system, do away with a bureaucrat to actually move forward on some of these. Whereas Saudi Arabia and other places, it's like, no.

We're starting at a different place, and we can move forward in a more efficient and quick way. And I do think that actually is what I saw when I was in Saudi Arabia. I mean, so many efficiencies, like you say, where things were digitized that I was like, this is so simple. Why can't we do this? And you would think that the knowledge and the history that that we had about how we built our systems would help, but I think they're actually what's holding us back.

So that kind of to me is something for us to think about in our schools too. And it was what attracted me to NEOM in the first place was that, I wanted to be in a place that wasn't hindered by what they thought school had been and 50, 60, 100 of years of history of what the schools were. So what are those things that you see in schools though that we can take that lesson from where we're gonna become just more efficient and we're gonna see schools be able to kinda catapult faster maybe in the regions like Saudi Arabia and Middle East and other places because they're not so tied down to a a history or past?

Yeah. I mean, the number one is probably that big topic of AI that we've discussed in exploring things like micro credentials to help personalize pathways. That takes, in some ways, pressure off educators and puts it more on the students to be more project based, inquiry based, curiosity focused, to to what extent you can do that. Now in terms of infrastructure, I I am very empathetic that you can't always do that because there's certain requirements that schools or countries or states or whatever are trying to adhere to. So, I would hope to see over time and something you'll see in some of these tops tiers, especially international schools or maybe American independent schools, is they have more autonomy over how they organize their time and their space and their requirements, for students.

So you you would hope to see more integration of some of these, you know, ideas that helps personalize pathways and more training around how to utilize AI for teachers and how to support the use of AI, within the classroom. So that's that's, like, some things I would hope to see, and and and I've been very lucky to be empowered to see to some extent here is there is a huge push on professional and personal development from from teachers, but also from students. And that does look different for everybody. So it it takes time, though. So like you say, you have to take that time from somewhere else.

So whether it be, you know, like, utilizing AI to write report comments, which is a very touchy subject I recognize. You know, whether you do that to create a few extra hours in your week or something else or whether you utilize AI for some experience ideas so that you can have a few more hours to look at potential internships or community engagement or service learning or something like that. That's gonna be more holistic development for the the workforce rather than just memorization. Right? Mhmm.

Those are just some ideas. Does in do any of those resonate with you?

Yeah. Absolutely. They they all do. I I think one of the others that, I I think there's, also because there aren't necessarily these institutions that have been around for so long that are built among the brick and mortar and they're so place based that it's gonna give the opportunity for more of a hybrid approach to learning and that we're not so tied to a building because we have necessarily donors or people that think that building has to be where learning happens. And so I think that looking at how we think about what a school looks like may look very different in the future where students are.

Yeah. Maybe going to a brick and mortar, but maybe not. Maybe just being in different places and having location be more about what you're learning than than going to a location to learn. So I think that I'm very excited about that, especially again in countries that are are are, I think, a little less tied to this generational story of what learning looks like. But also, like, I've said many times about when I was in Saudi Arabia, one of the cool things for me was that there was a national plan.

Vision 2030 was where the country was going, and this vision 2030 clearly outlines some big goals for what they want to see that directly translate into what we wanna do in school. So, like, you know, when we sometimes are in the United States asking what do we want our kids to to be ready to do in 2030. I mean, we're all kind of guessing our own futures for that. We're saying, well, I think this is gonna happen or I hope this is gonna happen or depends on who's in charge at that point, maybe. Right?

But in Saudi Arabia, it's like vision 2030 is where we plan to be. And so when you're in Saudi Arabia and you're thinking, what do we have to do to have our kids ready for the future? Like, let's just look at that because that is the target that they're all aiming for. So I think that actually gives a a really powerful impetus to to how you can be a futurist in a place like Saudi Arabia that has a very, very concrete plan for the future.

Yeah. It's just something to get around behind. Right? It'd be similar to having a a school mission and vision that's more core principles or values that's consistently referred to and not just something that's up on the wall that a director or the head of school talks about from time to time. Yep.

Right? You it has to be something that's not only consistently advertised and marketed, but it's lived by. And I think when you do have something to hold on to that's bigger than yourself like that, it's super supportive. And and you're gonna have people that buy in because they're gonna see those updates and that positive change. And I think that's a lesson we can sometimes bring in the stool in the hustle and bustle and busy nature.

And that's not a dig at any, you know, administrator. I mean, we've both been administrators. It's really challenging to balance everything. But but bringing it always back, everything, and thinking about what are we doing? How does this relate to what is our mission, and have we communicated that well enough?

It's just something that's gonna become even more important than it always has been as we just move faster and faster, and and pathways start to become, you know, instead of 2 or 3 different ways to graduate, I truly believe it's gonna be, you know, 20, 30 different ways to graduate within the district and not to this near distant future. So that's gonna just become more and more

I love I love that. You know, and just to stretch that a little longer, I mean, I I feel like, you know, even the idea of graduation will go away. Right? It'll be like this I mean, we we used to use the word matriculate, but it'll be more that. Right?

I mean, like, you would just move to the next level. I mean, you'll game up. You'll level up as as we do this better. So depending on your pathway, you may level up at a certain age or if you're on a different pathway, your own pathway, you may level up at a different age and for a different reason, in a different way, for a different skill set. So I do believe that's what's coming.

And I think that, again, as we lean into what the students that are in our care now need for the future, it makes us uncomfortable because that is not at all the way that we were that certainly I went to school, and certainly not what I was taught in education and what I was explained that I would be doing as a teacher. It's a very different role, and I think that that is the beauty of where we are right now, but it's also the rub. Right? It's like we have to learn new skill sets as educators as well, that we have to lean into the discomfort. We have to be a little more of a guide.

We have to be able to say that some of the things that were such essential knowledge for us growing up is not essential knowledge for kids, into the future. I I know that many of the things that I learned, I mean, we had to sit in labs and do typewriters. Like, I mean, I'm going back. This wasn't just keyboarding skills. This was typewriters.

That's not a skill that we would teach anyone today. I don't even believe that really doing, typing is a skill that we should teach kids today when most of our kids are gonna be typing on unconventional devices and not using the QWERTY keyboard probably in the future. So, you know, like, I think those are the things that make it challenging for us though to really grasp, but I have to let go some of those things. And I have to start looking and holding on to things that I don't even know yet what they are. And so that that's the that's what the fun part of the challenge.

Do you do you agree with that?

Sure. And while I was listening to you, it just reminds me of, you know, back in the day, I don't remember, I saw this presentation recently if it was late 1800s, early 1900s. We needed a way to better organize education. And so, you know, similar to the working life, we created this factory system that that worked pretty well for the need at the time. And, you know, as we think and reflect about what we need now, it's just not the same system.

But that system has worked for a long time, and it's what we're comfortable with. And so moving away from that is so challenging. The ambiguity is scary. Right? Even even us when we as adults, whether it's I'm gonna invest in something or I'm gonna go on this trip to this country I've never been to.

And you start going through the planning and you start doing your research and you're starting to use some of your critical thinking skills on what would be good and what might not be good and what are kinda like your strengths and weaknesses. I'm doing a SWAT analysis now, by the way. So when you think about all those things, it is scary because it's unknown. But but that's that's how it goes. That's the future.

Right? We just don't know.

We don't know. And and is it I'm glad you brought up. I was just speaking with someone last week about the factory model of education, and and we were talking about that. Sadly, the factory model of education did serve 1 generation, maybe 2, well. But now it has disserved many more generations since than it had served.

And and that's that's where it gets scary. Right? To think that that we we have not transitioned that, that it's fine that, you know, even that it took us a while to figure it out. But the fact that we're still doing this, like, the the bells that are in our schools right now all across the country, there's probably an administrator checking and making sure the bells are still working for next school year right now.

Yes.

That that was set in place for the whistle so that they knew when their shifts started and stopped. I mean, like, that's not how we work today. Right? And it's not how our kids should embrace school, that we shouldn't put them in 45 minute blocks thinking that's where learning occurs. And so we have to think about that.

And it seems so simple, and it is in many ways, but it is so hard for us to let go without having a firm plan for what's coming. I think that's still what's held us back all these years.

Oh, yeah. And then getting everyone on board. Right? You could have a a huge futurist innovator in your school that's, you know, making some big ticket decisions in that capacity. But, you know, whether everybody's truly ready to be on board, that's a whole another story.

I I think a lot of strategic plans are 3 to 5 years for a reason. It just takes time to make change. And so that's that's another part that we haven't really discussed that that's really difficult. I think Yes. People who want to lead that change or or empowered to lead that change, because in many aspects, they're not necessarily empowered to do so.

And then, of course, the fiscal responsibility that comes with that. If we are gonna truly try to personalize pathways and education and move away from this kind of standard factory model of shoving kids in a room and telling them all the same thing and then shoving them in a different room, you know, it it's gonna cost money, right, to create those other opportunities. That's just another challenge.

I love I love everything you said there. I love especially talking about the capacity because I think that is the the thing that we had to think about. Each one of our teams, each one of our organizations has their certain capacities for whatever it is they're doing, but certainly in the capacity for change as well. And that is very complex to look at. And you had to think about what your team's capacity is to not only, see the future and to think through it, but then actually to then embrace it and to go into it.

And so that's why every organization has to think about what their their innovation inventory, as I say, is. So, like, where are they now, but where could they be? And then what will it take in between to get there? But then also, I think, you know, you talking about this this idea about time. It's so important for us to we have to think about how long it will take us, but we also can't lay back on time too.

Because if if we're innovating at a speed by which by the time we get there now, it's already obsolete, then we've actually have not served really anybody. We've just pat ourselves on the back and said we've done something that was meaningful or impactful, and it really wasn't. So I think that's that is the trick. Now I will say that what we've seen with the technologies is just the incredible, cost reductions with the technologies. I won't I won't go into all my references, about when we landed on the moon, that my phone now has more computing power than computers they use to to to have us get NASA to land on

the moon. It's on set.

I just did it. I said I wasn't, and I did it anyway. But but it's incredible to look at the the way that we have technology now that is affordable. The fact that everyone has the really, just about I mean, not everyone. I I know that we're certainly privileged.

But but even when we were traveling abroad, the amazing thing that I saw was that even some areas that I thought were economically, certainly disadvantaged or not as fortunate as we were, you'd still see people with their phones, up and and they were going. You know? So so that technology and the ability to have that has certainly stretched. And so when we think about what the next thing will be, like, what are the things right now that we think, oh, we couldn't afford that, but that in maybe 2 years, you know, maybe 2 months, you never know what the innovations will be. It could change everything.

I I mean, I completely agree with what you're saying. And and you see it, I'm I'm really lucky to be in a place now where I think there's been, generally speaking, a pretty high acceptance of integrating AI, for example. But even the training that we've had to put people through and go through ourselves in order to use it well, it's taken time. And by the time, you know, you you feel like you're in a decent spot at the rate technology is advancing now, you're you're already almost behind. So it it's gonna become a very constant need, and I think people will really specialize.

There'll be a lot of knowledge sharing through these kind of special hubs that people will just have to take on because Mhmm. You won't be able to keep up with everything. And I think that's that's okay, but it's hard to be okay with it.

Right. That's the uncertainty of it all. Alright. Now we're going to, move into, as we round out this podcast, what I hope will become one of our favorite, parts of it. I I just I'm curious what kind of music you're listening to right now, Logan.

What what are some of the the the artists or the bands that you're kinda getting into right now?

Let me see.

I'm sure we're the same. I just you know, I wanna, you know, kinda take some notes here. Yeah.

No. No. Of course. I want I wanna give you an authentic answer, so I'm gonna open up my Spotify right now.

Nice. See. Okay.

I'm gonna just see. So, I'll do the same.

I'll do the same.

The most recent liked song so I do love all types of music, so please don't pin me in one corner. But my most recent song that I liked is called Where the Good Ones Go, and it's a Chase Bryant Jake Owen song. So it's a nice

song. Okay. Oh, nice. Alright. I like a little country.

But, you know, the one right below it is Houdini by Eminem, so there's some rap on there. So you never know what you're gonna get.

Well, as I pulled my Spotify up, no joke, the song that was, I guess, ready to play next was Every Rose Has Its Thorn by Poison. It's a great eighties reference, and, I've been listening lately to a lot of Billy Joel, and mostly, some eighties and then Red Dirt Country. So that that's that's my playlist for right now.

I like it.

Yes. Definitely.

I I love a little bit of everything. I love some r and b. I love some jazz. I love some country. Country is good field music.

I love some background music. I love rock. I love it all. So I think, you know, I can really get down with most things. But if you do play too much eighties, I I'll be prone to make fun, but I'll still enjoy it.

Don't work.

I do remember that when we were traveling, you would have a playlist that you would put on, and, I I thought it was great. And, I was like, man, I was so impressed. What was the name of the playlist you put together? I don't remember what you called it. It was

It's called 80 Summer Rock, but I only played it when I was hanging out with my myself. Yeah. 80 Summer Rock.

Enjoyed it and appreciate it a lot. So, well, we'll we'll we'll add in a little bit each time about what we're listening to. And then let's go to another, media. We we consume all the medias. So what what are you watching right now, that you're you're into on any of the platforms?

Well, last night premiered the start of season 2 of House of Dragon, so I will soon be watching the Game of Thrones spin off. And then right now, I'm also doing some, I just recently finished, the newest season of Jeremy Clarkson's it's called Clarkson's Farm. It's an Amazon

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Really funny. Really enjoyed that. So those are a few of the things that we've been watching quite a bit.

That's awesome. Well, I need to get on House of Dragons. Fun side story is, I had never watched Game of Thrones over the years. I had always been told that I would love it and but I I didn't watch it because I I'm frugal as my friends know, and I didn't wanna pay for HBO. But when we got to, NEOM and we started getting to be friends with with Logan and his wife, Nadia, we decided we were gonna watch Game of Thrones all the way through.

So we would have a weekly night where we would watch it, and it was amazing. It was fun to experience it with friends, and I think that y'all liked watching it, for your second or third time or more, because we were discovering it for the first time. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's just like when you travel with someone or when you're hosting someone. Right? You love to see their reaction.

So we we really enjoyed it. Now you guys gotta watch the first season of House of Dragon so you can watch the 2nd season live. Wonderful.

I will I will tell Deborah we're on it. We are are we just finished last night the 2nd season of Traders, which is a a reality show on Peacock, which I don't know if I can recommend it as great TV, but I do. I'm a I'm a fan of reality TV. I love the social dynamics of these games and how they put people into situations where they're competing, but they're also then having to navigate the social dynamics of it. And these 2 the 2 seasons were, reality show stars from other shows, and so it was kinda fun.

My daughter, Kaylee, I don't know if I did something right or wrong, but she is now a huge fan of all reality TV. So she was like, dad, you gotta watch it so we can talk about it. So we just finished those 2 seasons. And, so now we're we're looking, so we'll we'll move on to House of Dragons. That that sounds like a good plan for us.

Perfect. And if you need some a little lighter, that's a little more reality. I think they just dropped a new season on Netflix of King of Collectibles, which is a fun show because it's all about collectibles.

I had watched that before. Yeah. Yeah. I had watched that. Yeah.

I didn't know the new season's coming. That's great. I'll check that out. Very cool. Well, we are, again, at the end of what we said would be our time today.

We could talk forever. That's the thing that we love and and sharing with, each other the our our our interests, our past, but also the differences of where we've been and where we're going is so fun to me. So, we hope that y'all will continue to listen to us, and we're gonna, try to do a monthly, version of this so that we can throw out some of the things that we're seeing in education. But more than that, just sharing how we connect as as 2 people that, are from 2 different generations, but, enjoy just getting to be friends and getting to be colleagues together.

Sounds good, Mike. Thanks so much.

Alright, guys. We will see you next time. We hope that, again, if you, wanna join any of the conversations, you can leave comments. You can also, send us messages. We will have our emails on the podcast link, so you can just reach out to us if you'd like.

We'd love to hear from you. If there's a topic you'd like to hear us talk about from our 2 generational perspectives, share it with us, and we'll look at it. So, once again, we thank you all for listening. And, Logan, I hope you have a great rest of your day. What time is it now there for you?

It is 6:11 PM. So it's dinner time.

Alright. So good night to you, and Alright. Goodbye, everyone.